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updated 9/25/2012 10:52:10 AM ET 2012-09-25T14:52:10

THE ED SHOW with ED SCHULTZ
September 24, 2012

Guests: Dean Baker, Howard Fineman, Annette Taddeo, Nicole Lamoureux

ED SCHULTZ, HOST: Good evening, Americans. And welcome to THE ED
SHOW from New York.

Forty-three days until the 2012 election and only nine days until the
first presidential debate.

Mitt Romney thinks it`s fair to pay a smaller tax rate than Americans
who earn $50,000 a year? You like that? The Obama campaign is hammering
back. This is getting good.

This is THE ED SHOW -- let`s get to work.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REPORTER: What`s your big idea?

MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Freedom.

SCHULTZ (voice-over): Now we know. Mitt Romney loves freedom and he
loves his low tax rate.

REPORTER: So you think it is fair?

ROMNEY: Yes, I think it`s the right way to encourage economic growth.

SCHULTZ: Tonight, Richard Wolf on Mitt Romney`s definition of fair.
And economist Dean Baker on Romney`s ability to game the tax code with
Chinese investments.

NEWT GINGRICH (R), FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: My expectation will be that
in the crunch, in October, Governor Romney is going to be for the entire
ticket. He is going to be for Todd Akin.

SCHULTZ: Republicans turn to Newt Gingrich to try to save Todd Akin
in Missouri and try to save the Senate. Howard Fineman has the latest.

And Mitt Romney`s rock star reception at the Univision Forum is
finally explained.

(APPLAUSE)

SCHULTZ: It turns out he stacked the crowd with supporters. And it`s
not the first time.

ROMNEY: I do love that music. I have to tell you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHULTZ: Good to have you with us tonight, folks. Thanks for
watching.

Mitt Romney tried to create a distraction from his 47 percent
comments. Instead, he gave himself more headaches. Late Friday afternoon,
the Romney campaign released the candidate`s 2011 tax returns. The Romneys
paid a tax rate of 14.1 percent and would have paid an even lower rate if
they took all of their deductions.

The tax returns put the focus back on the issue of tax fairness in
America. Romney was asked about his tax rate during an interview with "60
Minutes."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Is that fair to the guy who makes $50,000 and paid a higher
rate than you did?

ROMNEY: It is a low rate. One of the reasons why the capital gains
tax rate is lower is because capital has already been taxed once at the
corporate level, as high as 35 percent.

REPORTER: So you think it is fair?

ROMNEY: Yes, I think it`s the right way to encourage economic growth,
to get people to invest, start businesses, to put people to work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: That is hogwash. In Mitt Romney`s world, Americans can be
sold on the idea of rich people being taxed less so they create jobs.
Haven`t we tried that?

Not even Ronald Reagan could sell that. Instead, Reagan preached
about the need for tax fairness nearly 30 years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD REAGAN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: We`re going to close the
unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid
paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were
understandable. But in practice, they sometimes made it possible for
millionaires to pay nothing. While a bus driver was paying 10 percent of
his salary. And that`s crazy.

Do you think the millionaire ought to pay more in taxes than the bus
driver or less?

AUDIENCE: More.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: The details in Romney`s tax returns are at odds with the
fiscal beliefs of his own running mate. Romney`s returns show holdings in
many foreign accounts, including Ireland and the Cayman Islands. In 2010,
let`s roll it back. In 2010, vice presidential running mate Paul Ryan told
the truth about offshore accounts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We don`t want to
have a situation where we are penalizing businesses for keeping their
money, their capital, their headquarters and their manufacturing facilities
in America. So then rather than having Ireland and the Cayman Islands be
the haven for capital formation, the place where you hide your money, why
don`t we make it America?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: And more than 800 pages of Mitt Romney`s tax returns, two-
thirds are devoted to foreign investments.

Maybe this is why Romney`s returns list the United States of America
as a foreign country? You can understand the confusion.

Romney`s blind trust investments also raised eyebrows. Romney himself
has called a blind trust an age-old rouge and said, you can give a blind
trust rules. But in his 2011 returns, Romney didn`t have many rules about
Chinese investments.

Keep in mind, Mitt Romney, all along, has been the candidate who says
that President Obama did not stand up to China. On the campaign trail and
in the debates, Romney has railed against China`s trade tactics.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: My own view on the relationship with China is this, which is
that China is stealing our intellectual property, our patents, our designs,
our know-how, our brand names. They are hacking into our computers,
stealing information not only from corporate computers, but from government
computers, and they`re manipulating their currency.

And for those who don`t understand the impact of that, I`ve seen it.
I`ve seen it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Ooh, tough talk, right?

None of these things stopped Romney from allowing Chinese investments
into his portfolio. His returns show the Romney family owning shares of a
Chinese oil company. Romney dumped the shares this summer. He knew it was
going to be an issue.

Romney also invested in a Chinese online media company called Youku.
"BuzzFeed" reports the site was launched in 2006 and quickly became a haven
for downloading illegal American content.

Hold on a second here now. Are we grabbing this? What did Romney
tell us China was doing with American intellectual properties?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: China is stealing our intellectual property, our patents, our
designs, our know-how, our brand names.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: But you invested in it.

I guess all those things add up to a good investment for Mitt Romney.
Let`s stop right here for just a moment, if we may.

All of these details were uncovered in Mitt Romney`s tax returns.
This is all stuff we didn`t know before last Friday. And many of them are
problematic, to say the least.

These are the tax returns Romney was OK with showing the American
people. We`ll let them see this. Imagine what`s in the returns he refuses
to show the American people.

Romney still has some defenders. Oh, yes, he has some defenders out
there, but they have credibility issues of their own.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Nobody is going to vote
based on Mitt Romney`s tax returns. He gave 30 percent of what he earned
away. He`s doing -- he`s a lot more generous than I am. I don`t know
about the rest of y`all too, but I`m sort of amaze at the generosity of the
Romneys.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Well, Senator Graham is defending Romney because graham
believes it`s an American value to game the tax code. He said it himself,
in July. Graham said, "It`s a game we play. Every American tries to find
the way to get the most deductions they can. I see nothing wrong with
playing the game because we set it up to be a game."

Now I just want to point out. And I know we`re focused on this
election. And going into the New Year right after the election, a lame
duck session of the Congress, we`re going to have one hell of a debate
about what we`re going to cut and what we`re going to tax to get our
Treasury in order.

But we`ve got a United States senator who backs up Mitt Romney and his
rate, saying he is very generous.

It`s all a game. It`s all a big game. Make no mistake: Romney gamed
the tax code. He basically picked his own tax rate and his accountants
played around with deductions so they could hit the predetermined rate near
14 percent. Would you take it?

Meanwhile, Romney still won`t explain the specifics of his tax plan
for you and me, Americans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: We bring down rates, we limit deductions and exemptions to
keep the progressivity in the code and encourage growth in jobs.

REPORTER: And the devil is in the details. What are we talking
about? Mortgage deduction? The charitable deduction?

ROMNEY: The devil is in the detail, the angel is in the policy which
is creating more jobs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Let`s get one thing straight. Tax cuts for the rich do not
create jobs. This is the top marginal tax rate from 1948 to 2010. You be
the judge. It`s gone down quite a bit.

Here`s unemployment over the same period. It`s very hard to argue
lower taxes do anything worthwhile for jobs, but Romney`s plan is even
worse than this. Not only will rich people get tax breaks, the only way to
pay for them is on the backs of the middle class and everybody else --
every wage earner out there. You can serve up a little more can`t you?

The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center has the bottom line on Romney`s tax
plan. They say, our major conclusion is that a revenue-neutral individual
income tax change would provide large tax cuts to high-income households
and increase the tax burdens on middle and/or lower-income taxpayers.

And yet inexplicably, Mitt Romney is still steering the conversation
toward taxes. He was on the stump today in Colorado, talking about tax
code reform.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: Our tax code is extraordinarily complicated. I understand
that there are about seven times as many pages in our tax code as in the
Bible, and it`s a lot less interesting. So I want to simplify our tax
code.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Romney is walking right into the president of the United
States` wheelhouse when it comes to the discussion of tax fairness.

The president has been hammering this message of tax fairness for the
past year. Fair share. Shared sacrifice. He did it again last night on
"60 Minutes."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You can`t ask me to
make student loans higher for kids who need it or ask seniors to pay more
for their Medicare, or throw people off of health care and not ask somebody
like me or Mr. Romney to do anything? Not ask us to do a single dime`s
worth of sacrifice?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: The Obama campaign rubbed salt in the wound by releasing
this ad today linking Romney`s tax returns to his 47 percent comments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, POLITICAL AD)

NARRATOR: Mitt Romney attacked 47 percent of Americans who pay no
income tax, including veterans, elderly, the disabled.

ROMNEY: My job is not to worry about those people.

NARRATOR: Doesn`t the president have to worry about everyone?

Mitt Romney paid just 14.1 percent in taxes last year. He keeps
millions in Bermuda and the Cayman Islands. He won`t release his tax
returns before 2010. Maybe instead of attacking others on taxes, Romney
should come clean on his.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: What`s going to happen? The American people are going to
render judgment on Mitt Romney based on whether they think he would be a
fair-minded leader.

Romney is making a pitch to the American people by saying that he is
fair. But his tax returns and the tax policy he believes in tell a totally
different story. This might be a reason why so many people have trouble
connecting with Mitt Romney.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER ALEXANDER, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Polls consistently show you
trailing and you`re not popular in every state almost. In every poll that
is shown, more folks view you as unfavorable than favorable. Why have you
failed to connect with average Americans?

ROMNEY: This is a campaign about a choice. As people watch the
debates and as they look at our ads, as they hear our speeches, as they
focus more and more on the path forward, I`m convinced they`re going to
conclude as I have that we can`t afford four more years like the last four
years.

ALEXANDER: But that connection, how have you failed to make the
connection?

ROMNEY: I`m pleased that we have a campaign that is taking our
message to the people across America, and, look, we`re going win.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Then again, there are a lot of reasons people have trouble
connecting with Mitt Romney. And one of them is he doesn`t understand
monthly bills. That`s my take on it.

How do you understand the middle class? If you`re in the middle class
and if you`re in a lower income than the middle class, are you worried
about paying rent? Worried about the car payment? Got to make sure you
pay all the bills that come up every month.

People live in this country paycheck to paycheck. If a small business
goes out of business, it`s about 21 days before it`s all over before they
shut the doors. That`s how tight business can be in this country.

But the fact of the matter is, we`re talking about a crisis. A
financial crisis in America right now. And we`re going to ask before
Christmas in this big debate in Congress, we`re going to be asking
Americans to pay more depending on who wins this election.

Mitt Romney is not going to ask the wealthiest Americans to pay more.
He thinks 14 percent is a damn good rate for somebody who makes $13.7
million.

Monthly bills, well, they don`t really come into play for people like
that.

But for people who make $50,000 a year, there`s such a thing as a
lifestyle change. They can`t go out and buy the car that they want because
their tax rate is higher.

And it`s about fairness. What is fair? Would it be a lifestyle
change for Mitt Romney on his tax returns if it showed that he actually
paid 36 percent after making $13.7 million? No.

That`s the whole point in all of this. The wealthiest Americans can
serve it up because they have to. We can go back to the old rates in
America and turn this Treasury around and give our chance and our economy a
real chance to grow. It`s been growing under President Obama, 30 months of
private sector job growth. And that`s with no help with the Republicans.

But if Romney gets in, all the favors will go to the wealthiest
Americans and all the burden will go on to the middle class, who at this
hour, are still trying to figure it out.

Monthly bills, the Republicans have no clue what they are all about.
That`s why they can`t connect with the middle class in this country.

Get your cell phones out. I want to know what you think. Tonight`s
question: Do you think Mitt Romney paid his fair share of taxes? Text A
for yes, text B for no to 622639. You can always go to our blog at
Ed.MSNBC.com. We`ll bring you results later on in the show.

And you know what? The Republicans always come up with this. How
much do you want me to pay? How much do you think I should pay?

That`s not the question. The question is: are you willing to help the
country turn our finances around? Are you willing to be a member of the
crowd that`s willing to do something called economic patriotism to help
this country dig out of a hole because we gave tax cuts for the wealthy?
Because we went into wars and didn`t pay for them, because we have big
pharma. And now, look where we are.

Are you willing as a millionaire to do more for the country? That`s
what this election is about. And Romney has got a plan that`s not going to
ask the wealthiest Americans to do more. That`s the difference.

Romney`s attempt to reset his campaign didn`t get very far with the
"60 Minutes" interview and his answers on tax fairness. Richard Wolffe and
Dean Baker will join me next.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Coming up, Mitt Romney says he has paid his fair share of
tax. But can he convince voters? Richard Wolffe and economist Dean Baker
will weigh in on that next.

Newt Gingrich, he`s back at it. Joins Todd Akin on the campaign trail
and says Mitt will change his mind about supporting this candidate.

I`ll ask Howard Fineman how long the Republican Party will go, how far
they will go to try to win the Senate.

And Romney says the uninsured can rely on emergency rooms for health
care. But five years ago, he called the same practice socialism. We`ll
have the details.

Share your thoughts with us on Facebook and on Twitter using #EdShow.
We`re coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW.

Tax fairness is one of Mitt Romney`s biggest problems. I have to tell
you, no wage earner I have spoken with thinks Romney`s 13 percent or 14
percent rate is fair.

Let`s hear Mitt Romney`s take on it one more time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Is that fair to the guy who makes $50,000 and paid a higher
rate than you do?

ROMNEY: It is a low rate, and one of the reasons the capital gains
tax rate is lower because capital has already been taxed once at the
corporate level, as high as 35 percent.

REPORTER: So you think it is fair?

ROMNEY: Yes. I think it`s the right way to encourage economic growth
to get people to invest, to start businesses, to put people to work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Let`s turn to MSNBC political analyst Richard Wolffe, and
also, Dean Baker, co-director for the Center for Economic Policy and
Research, and author of the book "The End of Loser Liberalism: Making
Markets Progressive."

Gentlemen, good to have you with us tonight.

Richard, Mitt Romney overpaid to get a 14 percent tax rate. That`s a
heck of a deal. How is he going to sell that to the middle class?

RICHARD WOLFFE, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, especially when he
said he would not be qualified to be president if he overpaid on his taxes.

So, you know, look, start from just the purely political level, he is
going to spend the next several days having to deal with or read about
questions about his taxes. The next several days takes him all the way up
to the debate point, his last chance to really change the dynamic in this
election. And he has wasted the buildup to it.

So, bad politics on the timing. Bad policy in terms of the fairness
question.

But there`s something else here. He claims that these are capital
gains. And that he`s a job creator.

Let`s just remember, this is a loophole for venture capitalists. He
didn`t go out and start a business in a basement. If he could tell that
story, I think he`d be in a better position with the American people.

In fact, he`s a financial guy. These are fees. It`s a deferred
income. It`s a loophole. If you`re looking to campaign as a reformer,
someone who can clean up the tax code, this isn`t the way to do it.

SCHULTZ: Dean Baker, Romney defends his tax rate as fair in part of
the double taxation argument. But the bottom line: isn`t he gaming the
system?

DEAN BAKER, AUTHOR, "THE END OF LOSER LIBERALISM": He`s totally
gaming the system.

A couple of points here. First off, my understanding Bain Capital is
organized as a partnership. That means it`s not even taxed at the
corporate level. So at least in his particular case, there is no story
whatsoever.

But a more general rule in terms of the policy, the special treatment
of capital gains, somehow if you get income from capital, you should pay a
lower tax than if you work for a living, that -- it`s important to keep in
mind that tax at the corporate level is in fact a voluntary tax because
anyone could organize a business as a partnership, in which case it`s not
taxed at the corporate level. Partnerships don`t pay taxes.

So, anyone who has stock in a corporation, they made that decision
that the value of corporate status, something given to you by the
government is worth paying taxes at the corporate level. They voted with
their feet to pay the taxes.

So then for them to turn around and complain to us, sorry, we`re
supposed to be rugged individualists here. If you didn`t understand the
rules, you`re playing the wrong game.

SCHULTZ: Well, Richard, connecting with the middle class is something
he simply has not been able to do. Coming back and trying to tell them he
paid a fair rate when he makes that kind of money, this is a huge
disconnect. As I was just saying in the opening block about monthly bills
and people doing things when it comes to changing their lifestyle. If his
rate were to go to 30 percent, 36 percent, his lifestyle wouldn`t change.

WOLFFE: Right.

SCHULTZ: This is going to be the hard argument.

WOLFFE: That`s where the 47 percent video is difficult for him to
overcome, because it kind of explains it. Why can he not connect? Well,
you could just say he`s a very wealthy guy, and that`s one explanation.

Another is he doesn`t try because he doesn`t care about the kinds of
people who may be struggling. For him, they are all some kind of victims
and dependents and mooching on the rest of us.

That is a problem for him in terms of the overall story. It`s not
just his values.

SCHULTZ: Yes.

WOLFFE: It is what lies behind them.

SCHULTZ: What about these Chinese investments? Problematic down the
road?

WOLFFE: All the investments are. The offshoring, the Chinese stuff,
it`s all contradictory.

But his basic position, moving forward, it`s not just about the
personal side that`s challenging for him. These are tough choices ahead
for all of that policymakers. What to do about the tax code? What are the
spending choices? Is he the best person to make those choices?

SCHULTZ: Dean Baker, your thoughts on that.

BAKER: It`s kind of striking. Going back to that 47 percent comment,
he was giving us a very, very different story than either President Reagan
or President George W. Bush said when they wanted to cut taxes for the
rich, because their argument, maybe they didn`t believe it, but their
argument was this is the best way to help ordinary workers.

We`re going to create growth, lead to more jobs, it`s going to help
everyone. That`s not what Mitt Romney was telling funders. He was telling
them, you can`t do anything for these people. They are hopeless, I`m
writing them off.

So, it was really quite striking. You know, if I were Mitt Romney, I
really don`t know what you say. I mean, I really didn`t say those things.

SCHULTZ: Richard Wolffe, Dean Baker, great to have you with us
tonight. I appreciate the discussion. Thanks so much.

Next the candidate who coined the phrase "legitimate rape" is forcing
Mitt Romney to make a tough decision. Find out how a bad situation got
worse for the Republicans.

And you won`t believe why Mitt Romney threw a tantrum. He`s got a
major problem with Latino voters, and his latest stunt is just making
things worse.

Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. Thanks for watching tonight.

This election is getting worse and worse for Republicans. Today, Todd
Akin, remember him, and Newt Gingrich, here is a heck of a team, they
managed to drag Mitt Romney right back into one of the ugliest Senate races
in the country -- just what Mitt needed.

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich campaigned with Akin in Missouri.
Akin is running against Senator Claire McCaskill. He made headlines last
month if you remember when he said he didn`t believe a woman could get
pregnant if she was the victim of a legitimate rape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TODD AKIN (R), MISSOURI: It seems to me, first of all, from what
I understand from doctors, that`s really rare. If it`s a legitimate rape,
the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Yes, if it`s a legitimate rape. Akin apologized, but Mitt
Romney asked him to drop out of the race.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: I can`t defend what he said. I can`t defend him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Akin defied Romney and stayed in the race. So, here we are.

Now, Newt Gingrich claims Mitt Romney will simply change his mind in a
month or so.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GINGRICH: My expectation would be in the crunch, in October, Romney
is going to be for the entire ticket and he`s going to be for Todd Akin.
How many people are going to split their ticket and have a Romney/McCaskill
ticket?

AUDIENCE: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: So the Republicans I guess you could say are in somewhat of
a bind, or is it a real bind?

Romney can reverse his decision, he can defy his party and support a
controversial candidate or he can write off control of the Senate.

Meanwhile, another Senate candidate has gone completely off script.
Video just surfaced showing Wisconsin Republican candidate Tommy Thompson
saying that he would do away with Medicare and Medicaid.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOMMY THOMPSON (R-WI), U.S. SENATE CANDIDATE: Who better than me,
who`s already finished one of the entitlement programs, to come up with
programs to do away with Medicaid and Medicare? Let`s block-grant what the
state has, and allow states to determine what`s going to go into Medicaid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Democrat Tammie Baldwin is gaining on Thompson in the polls.
And this weekend, Thompson blamed Romney for his troubles. So at this
point, you can forget about the national election. Romney needs to win
back the support of the candidates in his own party.

Joining me tonight, Howard Fineman, NBC news political analyst and
editorial director of The Huffington Post Media Group. Great to have you
with us, Howard. Will Mitt Romney flip-flop and support Todd Akin, do a
reversal? And it would be a big one. Do you think he`ll go there?

HOWARD FINEMAN, NBC NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: It depends on what the
polls show. Right now, Todd Akin is down, by consensus, maybe six, seven
points in Missouri. I think that Mitt Romney will blow whichever way the
wind does. And if he finds it necessary ultimately to look the other way
and unread Todd Akin out of the party, then he`ll do it. But right now, he
can stay away from it because Akin is still down considerably.

SCHULTZ: What do you make of Newt Gingrich going down there and
supporting this guy? Newt`s been quiet. He hasn`t been in front of the TV
cameras as of late. So he picks Todd Akin. What`s this all about?

FINEMAN: Well, I think Newt will go wherever he`s really and truly
wanted. And at this point, Todd Akin doesn`t have many friends in the
national Republican party. For that matter, neither does Newt Gingrich.
So -- so Newt wants to go somewhere to try to be a hero and a savior to
anybody who will view him as such. And Todd Akin is desperate enough to
say, come on, I need you.

SCHULTZ: Gingrich actually joked about Todd Akin`s rape comment,
saying everybody says something dumb. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEWT GINGRICH (R), FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: If saying something dumb
disqualified you, Joe Biden couldn`t be vice president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Is that a fair equation -- a fair comparison here? Was
Akin`s statement about so-called legitimate rape just a dumb comment?

FINEMAN: No. A dumb comment is the kind of thing that Newt Gingrich
did repeatedly during the campaign. But I think what Todd Akin did was
reveal a world view, reveal a deeply-held world view, a glimpse into that
world view that most of the rest of the Republican party, even the
Republican party, just couldn`t admit to or couldn`t accept, which it was
just such a -- such a sort of ignorant and mechanistic view of the role of
women that it was intolerable for even the Republican party base.

SCHULTZ: I think Tommy Thompson in Wisconsin is really taking a
gamble here, saying that he`s the one that`s going to be able to get rid of
Medicare and Medicaid. How damaging is Thompson`s criticism of the Romney
campaign?

FINEMAN: This is another one of those it secret May videos that are
coming back to get the Republicans in September. But there was another
part of that video just after what you played, Ed, in which Tommy Thompson
says we`ll put it on vouchers later on down the road. And by 2020, nobody
is going to want to pick Medicare rather than the vouchers because Medicare
is going to be broke.

And there what you see is an even deeper cynicism, in which Tommy
Thompson is saying, we`re going to run Medicare into the ground in the
meantime, so that when it comes to this choice that they want to make
between taking a voucher for a certain amount of money in Medicare,
Medicare actually won`t be a viable option.

That`s the most damaging part of what he said, in my view, because he
explains the cynical mechanics behind it. And Tammy Baldwin, who is
already ahead in that state, I think, is going to move farther ahead based
on these comments. Because it betrays a real cynicism on behalf of Tommy
Thompson, who is a guy who, at least back in the old days, had some support
on a personal level in Wisconsin.

SCHULTZ: This is the most radical he`s ever been.

FINEMAN: Exactly.

SCHULTZ: Interesting why he`s going there. Howard Fineman, great to
have you with us. Thanks, Howard.

Lots more coming up in the next half hour of THE ED SHOW. Stay with
us.

New polling shows Mitt Romney getting destroyed among Latino voters.
Tonight, new details on how he allegedly threw a tantrum and stacked the
crowd at the Univision forum.

And Mitt Romney tells "60 Minutes" his plan for the uninsured is a
hospital emergency room.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: If someone has a heart attack, they don`t sit in their
apartment and die.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Tonight the fallout from the remarks that Mitt Romney used
to call socialism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: When they show up at the hospital, they get care. They get
free care, paid for by you and me. If that`s not a form of socialism, I
don`t know what is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. Mitt Romney is struggling with
Hispanic voters. New polling shows President Obama with a 45-point lead
over Romney among Latinos. And Romney`s latest stunt, it isn`t helping
those numbers a bit. If you watched Romney`s Univision forum on Wednesday,
you may have thought you were watching a Tea Party rally, because you were.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: How are you? Nice to see you. Thank you. And Jorge, how
are you, my friend. Good to see you. Thank you so much. Thanks, you
guys. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: As Buzzfeed report, the Romney campaign originally agreed to
a crowd of mostly students from the University of Miami. However, when
they couldn`t find enough students to fill the seats, the campaign started
playing dirty. Romney`s campaign threatened to reschedule the event if
they weren`t allowed to bus in activists from around South Florida.
Organizers caved. Activists were brought in and ignored requests to hold
the applause.

One Univision host said this, "we were a little bit thrown because it
was supposed to be a TV show. It wasn`t a rally. It was a little bit of
disrespect for us."

This wasn`t the only demand from the Romney campaign. Romney almost
canceled the event himself. Just minutes before the show, apparently he
was not impressed with his introduction. An anchor said Romney agreed to a
35-minute event while President Obama agreed to a one hour-event. Romney
was invited out but he never showed.

One Republican at the taping said Romney, quote, "threw a tantrum. He
refused to go on until the introduction was retaped." Meanwhile, President
Obama held his forum the next night and his campaign played by the ground
rules. They stuck by their argument and allowed a large chunk of the
audience to be made up of students. The result was a well-balanced and
well-behaved audience.

For more on this, let`s bring in Annette Taddeo, a member of the
Miami-Dade Democratic Party. Annette, great to have you with us tonight.
The Romney campaign made a point last week to say that their campaign,
their outreach, the Hispanic vote in Florida is unprecedented for a
Republican. Then they pull a stunt like this. How is this going to play?

ANNETTE TADDEO, MIAMI-DADE DEMOCRATIC PARTY: It`s obviously the same
old, same old. They`re just -- you know, pretend, pretend, pretend and
everything is false, everything is just a show. They don`t follow the
rules. Obviously, Romney is all about just not following rules while Obama
was very happy to do an hour interview, very happy to answer the questions
honestly, while Romney just, you know, had to do his whole reinvention of
how he feels about Hispanics.

I`m surprised he didn`t come out with a sombrero on his head because
he was trying everything he could to pretend to love Hispanics, to pretend
to reinvent himself with his policies. But we all know very well he didn`t
answer the questions. The questions that he did answer were in complete
disagreement with everything he said in the past, such as he`s going to
veto the DREAM Act. Everything about education, he didn`t answer when they
asked the questions. They are not the policies that matter to us
Hispanics.

SCHULTZ: Does it show just how desperate he is when he throws a
tantrum and won`t come on because he didn`t like the introduction?

TADDEO: Of course he didn`t like the introduction, because then
people were going to know that he didn`t want to come on but only for 30
minutes, while Obama was willing to do an hour. Obama doesn`t mind
answering the tough questions. He doesn`t mind being truthful with
Hispanics, because that`s who he is. He`s honest. He doesn`t have
anything to hide. This guy has everything to hide.

SCHULTZ: So what is the conversation on Spanish-speaking talk radio
in Florida?

TADDEO: Well, there is the conservative Spanish talk radio and then
there is the regular talk radio, which will -- is, of course, talking about
the fact that this happened. They have interviewed the actual anchors on
Univision where we heard -- this news story broke from the news anchors
telling us the difference between the two forums, telling us about the
tantrum, telling us the difference in the audience because we, the
Democrats in the audience that were there, we behaved. We didn`t boo them
when they asked tough questions. They had every right to ask tough
questions.

SCHULTZ: This isn`t the first time Romney has pulled this kind of a
trick. He flew supporters to the NAACP speech in July. He used miners
that were forced to attend a coal event in August. So I think this speaks
volumes of his campaign. And of course there`s new polling out there that
shows that 83 percent of Latino voters are enthusiastic about voting in
November. What does this mean for President Obama?

TADDEO: Well, I believe that, you know, it just speaks volumes to the
fact that Latinos understand that Obama has been there with Latinos every
step of the way. The new tax policy -- I mean, Romney has been talking
about his tax policy. We as Latinos have children. A lot of us have
children and have families. And we care about their education. Romney
just wants to cut that education budget.

SCHULTZ: Let me ask you about the taxes. Do you think that the 14
percent rate, going back to a story we covered earlier tonight, is a
conversation in the Latino community? Middle-class families, lower income
families? Is it a fair rate? Is this going to hurt him?

TADDEO: I think here`s the problem. Most of us would lose our
deductions for our kids of 2,000 dollars, just so that he can give a
250,000 dollar deduction for millionaires? We`re middle class families.
It`s not going to go over well with Latinos. And the Latinos that are
actually supporting Romney better wake up and smell the cafe con leche.
That`s all I have to say.

SCHULTZ: All right, Annette Taddeo, thank you for your time tonight.
I appreciate it.

Coming up, Mitt Romney proves he doesn`t understand the science of
aviation. That`s right. You won`t believe what he said. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. A plane carrying Ann Romney
from Omaha to Santa Monica last Friday was forced to make an emergency
landing after the pilot reported seeing smoke in the cockpit. An apparent
electrical fire caused the charter plane`s cabin to fill with smoke,
prompting the pilot to divert to the Denver Airport, where they landed and
were met by emergency crews.

Fortunately, no injuries were reported. Understandably, husband,
relieved, Mitt Romney spoke about the ordeal on Saturday at a Beverly Hill
fundraiser, and offered his unique take on aircraft safety. "I appreciate
the fact that she is on the ground safe and sound. And I don`t think she
knows just how worried some of us were. When you have a fire in an
aircraft, there`s no place to go. Exactly, there`s no. And you can`t find
any oxygen from outside the aircraft to get in the aircraft because the
windows don`t open. I don`t know why they don`t do that. It`s a real
problem."

Now in the grand scheme of the campaign, this is not anywhere near a
big deal. But he said it. So we`d like to point out a couple things.
First, anyone who has flown commercially knows that it the cabins are
pressurized. It`s covered in that whole safety thing before you take off.
And in corporate aircraft, they are pressurized too.

You know, when the flight attendant comes on and tells you about the
oxygen masks? Second, almost every sixth grader learns about the
atmosphere. There`s very little oxygen at the altitude of a jet.

And last but not least, the jet Ann Romney was on flies at 500 miles
per hour, at probably about 40,000 feet. Any clue what happens to stuff
inside a plane going that fast with the windows open?

Now, you have to remember this is coming from a guy who swears his dog
Seamus had a great time strapped to the roof of his car for a 12-hour
drive. But this is also the man running for the presidency of the United
States. You be the judge. Ever thought you`d want to open up the windows
of an aircraft at 30,000 feet? A little lower. I don`t think so.

And Mitt Romney says that`s a problem. He doesn`t know why they don`t
do that. That`s a problem. This guy that wants authority over the Federal
Aviation Administration.

Tonight in survey, I asked you do you think Mitt Romney paid his fair
share of taxes? Four percent of you said yes; 96 percent of you said no.

Coming up, Mitt Romney really outdid himself with this answer on what
to do with uninsured Americans. Nicole Lamoureux joins me for the
discussion next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: And in the Big Finish tonight, Mitt Romney`s absolutely eye-
popping answer on health care in this country. It is truly incredible,
even by Romney`s standards. Here`s what Romney said when he was asked,
does the government have a responsibility to provide health care to the 50
million Americans in this country who don`t have it today?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: Well, we do provide care for people who don`t have insurance.
If someone has a heart attack, they don`t sit in their apartment and die.
We pick them up in an ambulance and take them to the hospital and give them
care. And different states have different ways of providing for that care.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s the most expensive way to do it, in the
emergency room.

ROMNEY: Again, different states have different ways of doing that.
Some provide that care through clinics. Some provide the care through
emergency rooms. In my state, we found a solution that worked for my
state. But I wouldn`t take what we did in Massachusetts and say to Texas,
you have to take the Massachusetts model.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Of course Romney is talking about the most inefficient and
expensive way of providing health care in this country. And Romney himself
knows this. Here he is in 2010.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe in universal coverage?

ROMNEY: Sure. It doesn`t make a lot of sense for us to have millions
and millions of people who have no health insurance and yet who can go to
the emergency room and get entirely free care for which they have no
responsibility, particularly if they are people who have sufficient means
to pay their own way. So we said, look, we have an idea. Let`s take all
the money we have been spending to give out free care, paying hospitals
that give out free care, and let`s use those same dollars to help people
who can`t afford it buy insurance, some portion of their insurance premium.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Obviously in that interview, Romney said the exact opposite
of what he said in the "60 Minutes" interview. One more point, there is no
such thing as free care. Americans without health insurance can go
bankrupt from an emergency room visit or two.

Let`s go a little further, a little further back in Romney time, in
the Romney time machine to 2007.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: When they show up at the hospital, they get care. They get
free care paid for by you and me. If that`s not a form of socialism, I
don`t know is. If people can afford to buy insurance, if they can afford
to buy insurance, or if they can pay their own way, then they either buy
that insurance or pay their own way, but they no longer look to government
to hand out free care.

That, in my opinion, is ultimate conservatism. That`s why the
Heritage Foundation worked with us and was at the celebration of the
signing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Oh, brother. In Romney`s book, "No Apology," he said he had
an epiphany about how to redirect emergency room money to people who needed
health insurance. That`s part of the reason Romneycare actually worked.
Now Mitt Romney is saying, just leave it up to the emergency rooms, which
he called socialism back in 2007.

Mitt Romney, you know what he needs to do? He needs to debate
himself. We deserve it. I`m joined tonight by Nicole Lamoureux. She is
the executive director of National Association of Free Clinics. Nicole,
great to have you with us again tonight. I know you`re out there doing
great work on behalf of the people. Great to have you with us.

What is your response to Mitt Romney saying that we care for people
without insurance because they just go get it at the emergency room?

NICOLE LAMOUREUX, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF FREE CLINICS: Well, quite
frankly, I was flabbergasted. To think the answer is to go to the
emergency room, I think that`s ludicrous. The reason it`s called an
emergency room is it`s used for emergencies. Sending the uninsured to an
emergency room is absolutely, positively backwards.

We want the uninsured to go to doctors to get the primary and
preventive care that they need, so that they can be productive members of
society. Sending them to the emergency room when their diseases have
exploded is just sentencing them to death.

SCHULTZ: Romney also mentioned free clinics. Can you even begin to
address the burden of the uninsured in this country through free clinics?

LAMOUREUX: Well, I can give you -- no. Let`s be honest. Free and
charitable clinics across the country are doing the best that we can. But
let`s take this example. We`re in Texas right now, the state that he
acknowledged. He said he would never do what happened in Massachusetts and
give it to Texas. We`re going to be doing a free clinic on Saturday. We
already have 900 people registered to come and get care at a convention
center.

Obviously, there`s a dramatic need here in Texas and across the
country. Our clinics are doing the work that they do with little to no
federal or state support. But we rely on volunteers and donations. It`s
not our job to handle this entire problem of the uninsured. It just can`t
be done by us.

SCHULTZ: Romney`s plan in Massachusetts has worked, but he doesn`t
think it should be applied to other states like Texas. And you`re in
Texas. What about that?

LAMOUREUX: I find it absolutely amazing. As I said, we have 900
people already registered for this free clinic. We need more doctors and
nurses to come help us, because we know we could see up to 2,000 people in
one day, 2,000 uninsured individuals who have nowhere else to go to get the
care that they need. To say that there`s not a problem in Texas or in this
country is just a mistake.

SCHULTZ: Nicole Lamoureux, thank you for joining us tonight. Keep up
the great work.

And of course we end this broadcast tonight not knowing where Mitt
Romney stands on health care. That`s THE ED SHOW. I`m Ed Schultz. "THE
RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

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